This is an interview with Kk Naimool conducted by Lydia Hooper.

Co-founder and principal of Collective Justice Consulting, Kk is a writer, activist, and educator living in Beacon, NY where they currently serve on the city's Human Rights Commission.

Kk Naimool is a queer, non-binary Indo-Caribbean transplant passionate about creating safer spaces for all. They are an avid advocate for equity and justice, predominantly in the areas of racial justice, gender justice and LGBT health equity. They have over two decades of experience in working with trauma impacted communities and developing curricula for collective healing. As a community organizer and pursuer of justice, Kk firmly believes that any meaningful change must include ALL of us and simultaneously hold space for our full selves. They currently serve in leadership roles in a number Queer AAPI collectives and racial justice collectives. As a former external auditor and trained accountant, Kk leverages their experience and knowledge to help growing organizations build in efficient processes and systems. Kk has helped nurture many grassroots collectives to formalize organizational structure and build internal capacity.

**Image Description:** Peach background with teal lines framing a circle that is slightly skewed to the right. Teal arrow points to text in circle and Purple arrow overlaps with circle on top right. **Text in White Circle Reads:** “So when I think about my role in design justice, it’s **what would it mean to not have to worry about what I look like, what I sound like, which parts of me I leave behind." Text in Bottom Left reads:** KK Naimool.

I'm wondering how you might describe yourself and your place in the field of design justice?

I’ve never thought of myself as having a place in design justice. I'm an immigrant. I became a citizen in 2020. I was so excited to not vote for Trump. [Laughs] I found that the brand of sexism, ageism, racism, ableism, that is unique to the United States of America also varied state by state. I’m from the Caribbean, and there were a lot of spaces where I was being asked to respond to the question “Who are you? But not all of you, just the part that's relevant to this space.” And it was exhausting.

I was a former auditor, I worked at a big six firm, I was making some really fun money as a young 20 year old, and then I decided, to pretend to be noble, to try to help people and went back to school to study psychology. I felt so good about myself. Eventually, I was working with kids and those kids were going to jail. I would see windows of opportunity to connect and build meaningful relationships with these beautiful children, and then I would visit them in prison. And it was really difficult to acknowledge how much harm I was participating in, how much harm I was experiencing by separating my professional Self from my personal Self.

So when I think about my role in design justice, I'm really just thinking, what would it mean that I can show up in a space and say: I used to be an auditor and an accountant, I've worked in trauma informed care, and I love to cook. I tell my wife all the time that I hate labels, and I also don’t ascribe to any binaries. I'm simply this one-person-protest against all labels. So when I think about my role in design justice, it’s what would it mean to not have to worry about what I look like, what I sound like, which parts of me I leave behind.

I think my role in design justice is about how we could do this better. And I think that's really it. Just - I think we can do it better. And I'm going to keep trying. Every time it doesn't look like I’m succeeding, I'm just gonna keep trying.

Yes, so much of the principles are about that, right? Just keep trying. Are there any principles in particular that you find really relevant to you or particularly compelling?

The one about looking for non-exploitative solutions. I think that to me is fundamental, the sort of foundation or the reason why to pursue the other principles. Like when I found out that quinoa was a delicious, very healthy grain. I was excited. And then I found out that the Indigenous communities that traditionally ate quinoa were opting to eat Uncle Ben's rice so that they can sell the quinoa at a higher price. And I was just like, oh, here I thought I was being really good to my body, and because of my demand for this product, I impacted the nutrition of a whole group of people that are already struggling.

So now when I think about being intentional, I try to figure out a way that's not exploitative. So if I still eat quinoa, because I enjoy it, I also acknowledge that there are systems in place that brought this to me, and in calling to light that it's exploitative maybe I can change it by letting people know, for example that every time you think you're saving the planet by having a vegan diet there's a lot of ways in which the mass production of meatless foods are causing harm.

**Image Description:** Peach background with black and yellow lines framing a circle, that is slightly skewed to the right. Pink arrow points to text in circle in the top right and bottom. Includes Image of KK and friend **Text in White Circle Reads: “**"**You're raised on the story of the one** ,the Chosen One, the hero, a founder. But in reality, it's everything that you've ever experienced and all the people you've come into contact with, that have had some sort of impact and **you're not alone."** **Text in Top Left:** Kk Naimool

It's interesting because in what you're sharing I’m hearing something about how you can have the values but without the information, how can you know that you're aligned with the values? It jumped out to me as a potential challenge in applying the principles, because it's easy to say “oh, of course, I don't want to exploit people,” but if you don't have the truth about what's actually happening and the systems that you're part of how can you know if that's what you're doing? So whether you want to speak to that challenge or maybe another one that you feel like is significant, I would love to hear more about some of the barriers around applying the principles, whether that's through your own journey or what you've witnessed with others.

I think it would also be naive to just say that I think about these things and then that’s the end of it. I don't know if the application of the principles is even possible in the world we exist in, given that we exist within frameworks that benefit from harm.

I’m coming to terms with the fact that I'm trying to do better and it's not the best because it's going to take more than just me. I think that there is a lot of unlearning I had to do. You're raised on the story of the one, the Chosen One, the hero, a founder. But in reality, it's everything that you've ever experienced and all the people you've come into contact with, that have had some sort of impact and you're not alone.

I think the whole you're not alone is the reason to try to pursue these principles, and also to move away from benefiting from anyone else's harm. There are organizations that feed communities every week, and I look at them and say they're feeding people. I'm not going to say “Where are you getting your money from? You should not take that money and also stop feeding people.” It's rather, “Let's talk about where you're getting that money from, and how can I help you find other solutions so that you continue to do the work you're doing and you don't have to depend on this place that is also doing harm.”

I don’t want to just believe you can follow the principles, we have to understand that we’re in some really terrible situations that are not our creation but we’re accountable to our principles and values. Conversations around how do we address that- that is what it means to follow the principles. I can’t think that I'm going to solve it. What happens when I leave? I think of emergent strategy and starting small, just the little tiny thing that I can do, and not to get caught up in who's getting recognized for what.

**Image Description:** Peach background with teal and purple arrows/lines framing a white circle, that is slightly skewed to the right. Teal & Purples arrows frame the text from the top and right. **Text in White Circle Reads:** "I worked on a national level, building curriculum and delivering training to hospitals and health care workers. In the midst of a pandemic, to still be having **conversations about who are we going to train? versus how can we feed people?** I found myself saying “Nope, right now there's an immediate emergent need and people are struggling. **We need to step back and reassess.”** **Text in Top Left:** Kk Naimool

Would you want to speak about a specific project that you've been on that really captures some of the ideas that you're speaking to?

So I'm queer, I'm non binary, and my most recent foray into trying to find ways to fix things has been in health equity. I worked on a national level, building curriculum and delivering training to hospitals and health care workers. In the midst of a pandemic, to still be having conversations about who are we going to train? versus how can we feed people? I found myself saying “Nope, right now there's an immediate emergent need and people are struggling. We need to step back and reassess.”

With that field of work, I was recognized locally and nationally as a resource for most things LGBTQ. When people got stuck in the pandemic and were at home, I'd have a parent call me up and say to me “My kid just came out, I don't know what to do.” My wife and I started to have kids come to our house who would come out to us and not come out to their parents. Sometimes, we would find ourselves doing trauma-informed sex ed at our kitchen table.

Some of this was happening prior to the pandemic, but then in 2020 with isolation, I started getting text messages from parents saying “My kid’s really depressed, I don't know what to do.” So I met with a couple of parents, and gave a mini info session and it grew. They have now become a grassroots organization 400 people strong.

What I'm hoping to do in working with this group of parents is to take the design justice principles and ask these families who want to help their kids to work together to create some sort of intervention and tool that families can use to advocate for themselves directly to the schools. So a project I'm embarking on for the next year is to design a toolkit of interventions using all of my experience and knowledge, and to create a cohort of families who can train other parents. They can create their own income stream to sustain their organization and build a cohort of parent-advocates to avoid burnout.

It’s a really tiny thing. And it's not going to be GLSEN, it's not going to be PFLAG, it's not going to be the HRC, it's not going to be any of the centers that offer trainings. It's going to be the actual families that say to their school, the educators and the administration: “No, this is how you've harmed us. Let's work together to fix it.”

You said this is a tiny thing and I can understand what you meant by that. But that doesn't seem like a tiny thing at all. Especially because it involves young people. It’s a big deal if early on in your life you feel seen and heard and like there's a community that has your back.

It’s tiny geographically… Yeah, now that you say that, I realize that I'm taking on a huge project. I feel like I'm failing all the parents. [Laughs]

I didn’t mean it like that. I mean it could have a very significant impact on these young people's lives.

I feel like you mentioned accountability a couple of times, so do you want to share more about that? Or if there's anything else that you want to make sure that you share?

I honestly don't know what I want to share. I was just surprised someone wanted to talk with me about this. Like, oh crap, now I have to be accountable for all these grand visions. I fear the accountability because I know it's going to be imperfect.

For me, accountability is potentially the most important part of whatever the practice is. Because it's easy to be good in a silo. It's easy to be kind with people you don't know. It's easy to donate when you have. It's easy to do all of that and so the real accountability to your principles is when you're in your community and you're part of the work that's being done. Before I've always felt good about the work I've done because I'm helping them, and to sit with these principles means we are doing this for us.

So the accountability is to keep me in check, where I'm not the expert. And what it means to be a facilitator is really tricky, because there's also people who don't want to be an expert, who will lean on someone like me, who in trying to hold them accountable gets put in this position where I don't want to make the decision for you, I want to make it with you.

I don't think about the design justice principles every day, I try to think about To whom am I accountable? I wish accountability was the end all, but I have to deal with my imposter syndrome or my guilt. I wish I wasn't held accountable because now I have to live with the idea that I am imperfect. [Laughs] So for me, in trying to adopt and practice these principles, accountability is the most important part for my own growth.

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You can learn more about Kk by visiting www.collective-justice.com and/or following @collectivejusticecommunity.

This interview was conducted and written by Lydia Hooper, who can be reached through www.lydiahooper.com.

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