This is an interview with Rubina Singh and Bhawna Parmar conducted by Lydia Hooper.

Bhawna and Rubina are the cofounders of Barabar Design, an Indian social design collaborative.
Bhawna is a social designer, researcher and an artist with varied experience across disciplines trying to find meaning at the intersections of co-design, research and social justice. Rubina is a social designer and artist. Rubina trained in law as well as design, which shaped her journey in rights-based social justice work for the last ten years.

**Image Caption:** Children from a New Delhi based school playing with a board game prototype to build curiosity about their natural environment.

**Image Description:** Four young children sit around a small light blue table, against a wall that is burnt orange. They are playing a game. The game board includes for sheets of paper that make up a square and has dice that is laying near the middle of the board. There are cards scattered on the left of the table and a few stacked on the right.

Do you want to share anything about yourself and what brought you to design justice?

Bhawna: We met during our masters together. We studied in a master's program called Social Design. And it involved a lot of fieldwork, going to communities and working with communities which we did not have an experience of before joining this course. One experience that actually brought us together was during a service design studio where we had to work with the homeless community of Delhi. So this was a new experience for the both of us and both of us come from certain privileges. I wouldn't want to lie, I'd say that as we've grown up, we've had it instilled in us that homeless people are a certain kind of people, you're not supposed to go near them and all of that. When I went there, I realized that it was a huge learning for me to see that what I've been told since I was a child was just completely wrong. There are not a lot of differences. Obviously, there is a big class/caste difference, but they're also human. I'm also human, and we were just like talking about our day to day things. And there were certain overlaps in our experiences as well.

Rubina: This was just our first year, second semester. So we were just like getting into things and that particular studio made us question the way that our design studio was teaching us the design process and also questioning a lot about how we were taught and what we were taught in school. And taking that back to the conversations we had with the people that we were working with and realizing that this is not something that we felt very comfortable ethically doing. As we brought those questions back to school, there were a bunch of discussions around it and in fact it was in the next semester that followed that a professor introduced us to Design Justice Network. Talking about it more and learning about it more, it was like this makes a little more sense and this is more the direction that we want to get.

**Image Caption :** Snapshot from 'The Social Fabric', a speculative design mixed media comic which explores the life of Suman in an increasingly polarized, capitalized world.

**Image Description:** (Right) Peach background with black and yellow lines framing a circle, that is skewed to the right. To pink arrows are positioned in the upper-right section of the circles. (Left) Image of the graphic novel. Scenes are broken into three stacked sections. **Text in White Circle Reads:** "Last year we started a collaborative called “Barabar,” which translates roughly to “equal” in Hindi, and so we've been doing a few projects there. We're part of the cohort of MedLab in University of Colorado, Boulder. We've done a couple of research projects and a couple of design experiments, like graphic novels." Rubina Singh

I know that you are now working together to support the Design Justice Network in translating the principles into Hindustani. Are there other ways that you're collaborating?

Rubina: Since that studio that brought us together with these questions, we've been doing a few projects together. Last year we started a collaborative called “Barabar,” which translates roughly to “equal” in Hindi, and so we've been doing a few projects there. We're part of the cohort of MedLab in University of Colorado, Boulder. We've done a couple of research projects and a couple of design experiments, like graphic novels.

**Image Description:** Peach background with black and yellow lines framing a circle, that is skewed to the right. Two pink arrows frame the text on the top and one yellow arrow on bottom of circle frame **Text that reads:** “ "When we were a part of the agitation, we started questioning: what is our role? We stand with the marginalized communities that the government is cracking down on, but what are our roles in also upholding these systems? We are in many ways privileged and enjoy those privileges.” Text in Top-Right Reads: Bhawna Parmar

**Image Caption:**
'The Rights Market' is a speculative design project exploring the future of human rights in the Late Late capitalist era of the *Digicene*'.

**Image Description:** The background has shown a grocery aisle with blue shelves and pink items with no text information. The figure in the center is framed with an aisle on each side. The figure’s hands are visible. The left hand is holding a badge, **that reads:** “HUMAN RIGHTS”, with a dove under it. The right hand is pushing a cart filled with a variety of food. **Text in the Top-Right reads**: “What if we told you, you can buy human rights.” On the bottom of the graphic, white (left) and pink (right) banner. On the left (white) of the banner is a logo **that reads**: “TRM” and **text to the right of the logo that reads:** “FEEDING THE CITIZEN IN YOU”. On the right (pink) of the banner, **the text reads:** “Buy yours at: www.therightsmarket.com”

Do you want to talk a little bit about ways in which you're seeing the principles come alive for you in any projects that you've been working on?

Bhawna: So, one project that came out of last year…There have been a lot of protests and a lot of people's movements in India because of the government here, and in 2019 there was this movement of Anti CAA-NRC protests. And then in 2020, there were farmers movement, and both of us were an active part of the Anti CAA-NRC protests because it had a lot of student uprising as well. And then COVID happened and all the protests were shut down and everything. When we were a part of the agitation, we started questioning: what is our role? We stand with the marginalized communities that the government is cracking down on, but what are our roles in also upholding these systems? We are in many ways privileged and enjoy those privileges. We are a part of a society which is actively cracking down on its minorities, and it's happening in our own living rooms, among our own peer circles . So we were having conversations around that - how our work is upholding these systems, and what are we doing, what is our role? So that sort of birthed a project called Khudnagri, which was where we tried to bring people together in a workshop setting to reflect on our own roles and how instead of “othering” the oppressor we should also look within ourselves to find the oppressor within.

Rubina: Last year we worked with an organization called The Sarvodya Collective. They basically focus on intellectual and developmental disabilities. We worked on a research project for them, trying to understand the landscape of elections in India. Trying to put together the different stakeholders in these conversations, then you have challenges in the plan. This was someplace where we really stumbled because to center people with intellectual disability in these conversations, it was a bit of a struggle even with the people that we work with. There is an assumption that people cannot speak for themselves. The more we tried to reach out to others, it became harder and I think part of it was trying to build that buy-in with everybody about the importance of these principles and the importance of taking the time that it takes to make that happen. There's an entire industrial NGO complex and you have funding and you have deadlines and deliverables and it just becomes this space where you can't necessarily have the time and the energy to really create a shared design process.

Image Caption: 'The Rights Market' is a speculative design project exploring the future of human rights in the Late Late capitalist era of the Digicene'.

**Image Description:** Peach background with teal (left) and purple (right) lines framing two white circles. The black text in the circle on the **Left Reads:** "....not even aware of the word design but they do practice design, what they are doing is design. So how do we define that - we aren’t experts, we can't give a definition of design that everyone has to follow. So how do we come together and build that definition together is also something that we've been talking about. - Bhawna Parmar" The text in the circle on the **Right Reads:** " Rubina SinghEven the process of the translation of the Design Justice principles was so difficult, like does that even transpose to an Indian context? We had five people on it, trying to figure out does this work in this part, in your state, does this work here."

Are there any other challenges that you want to talk about that you experienced related to applying the principles?

Rubina: For us, I think recognizing our own social location identities by doing these projects, the questions that have been very alive for us are about Where do we stand? Who are we to even be doing this? How do we create an approach to our work so that the designer is not an expert, but a facilitator. So how do we create that space while also recognizing our own privileges? And how do we want to take our work forward in a way that isn't exploitative, that isn’t extractive, that isn't building it on somebody else's lived experiences, so I think that's something that we personally have a lot of conversations about.

Bhawna: We were also talking about what design means in an Indian context, and especially because India is not a homogeneous society. Like you will go 100 kilometres away, and there's a different language, different dialect, and different community living altogether. So what does design mean in an Indian context? Design has become a buzzword in India, especially in the corporate startup culture. And now it's also sort of trickling down to the NGOs and a lot of NGOs have started thinking about what design means to them. So what they are also inheriting is the westernized idea of the five step design process that IDEO has given to the world. It doesn't necessarily translate into our context when we work with communities and so this is another conversation that we keep on having. What does decolonized design mean in an Indian context? There are communities or there are NGOs also that are not even aware of the word design but they do practice design, what they are doing is design. So how do we define that - we aren’t experts, we can't give a definition of design that everyone has to follow. So how do we come together and build that definition together is also something that we've been talking about.

Rubina: Even the process of the translation of the Design Justice principles was so difficult, like does that even transpose to an Indian context? We had five people on it, trying to figure out does this work in this part, in your state, does this work here. We actually ended up even suggesting another principle in case that might help. I think the deeper you go in it, the more conversation and the more time that it means. Profit centered design is not taking the time that it needs to have those conversations and bring people to the center, centering people is not a one time thing.

Now I have to ask: What was the principle you suggested?

Rubina: So for us caste is a huge issue in India. We wanted to bring that in somehow. As designers in India, we have to recognize the role that caste plays and work actively to dismantle that. So it’s “We work consciously towards a design practice which dismantles systems of caste, religion, and gender based oppression.”

Is there anything you're looking forward to? Either in your own work or in the field of design justice?

Bhawna: Well, definitely so much. Mainstream design is upholding the status quo in India right now. Trying to find places and spaces where these conversations are happening, definitely there are pockets and these conversations are happening. So building on these conversations, taking them to different places, to different people, and learning from them as well. Because again, we're not gatekeeping, so learning what design means to them or what the process is for other people, that is something that is definitely something we're looking forward to.

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You can learn more about by visitingTwitter: @barabardesign

Instagram: @barabar.design
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/barabardesign/

This interview was conducted and written by Lydia Hooper, who can be reached through www.lydiahooper.com.

Would you be willing to share your experiences with the Design Justice Network? There are no prerequisites (including a traditional design background), and past stories have featured members working in a variety of fields such as social work, community organizing, and handicrafts. We make the process easy for you (no writing involved!) and will only share what/how you consent for us to. We are particularly interested in hearing from members outside of Europe and the North American East Coast. If you have questions or interests, please contact designjusticenetwork@gmail.com.