David Dylan Thomas, author of Design for Cognitive Bias, creator and host of The Cognitive Bias Podcast, and a twenty-year practitioner of content strategy and UX, has consulted major clients in entertainment, healthcare, publishing, finance, and retail. As the founder and CEO of David Dylan Thomas, LLC he offers workshops and presentations on inclusive design and the role of bias in making decisions. He has presented at TEDNYC, SXSW Interactive, Confab, An Event Apart, LavaCon, UX Copenhagen, Artifact, IA Conference, IxDA, Design and Content Conference, Emerging Technologies for the Enterprise, and the Wharton Web Conference on topics at the intersection of bias, design, and social justice.

This is an interview with David Thomas conducted by Lydia Hooper.

Above you will find a recording of Design for Cognitive Bias - Using Mental Shortcuts for Good Instead of Evil w David Dylan Thomas. A network wide event put on our Philly Node.

**Image Description:** Peach background with black and yellow lines framing a circle, that is skewed to the right. Pink arrow points to text in circle in the top right. The left side of the banner includes an image of a blue and white book cover. The text on the cover reads: David Dylan Thomas, Design for Cognitive Bias, Forward by Yasmine Mustafa **Text in White Circle Reads:** “And on the strength of that book I go out and I give workshops and talks that are designed to give people tools for inclusive design and also get them really excited about inclusive design and make it seem like something that's tangible, that they can actually take steps on, even the very next day.”

How would you describe yourself and where you see yourself being involved in the work of design justice?

So weirdly, I see myself as an artist. I say weirdly because my background is in UX and content strategy, I've been a filmmaker for a long time but that's not my professional career, and I've written a book but the book isn't like a fiction book. But all of these endeavors kind of have this artistic aspect because I always feel like I'm trying to perform in a way that kind of incites people, whether it's a movie or book or talk or workshop I'm giving, I'm trying to get people excited about more inclusive ideas.

So specifically in the context of design justice, my professional work is that I wrote this book Design for Cognitive Bias. And on the strength of that book I go out and I give workshops and talks that are designed to give people tools for inclusive design and also get them really excited about inclusive design and make it seem like something that's tangible, that they can actually take steps on, even the very next day. But my approach to it is very artistic. It's very much about being creative, and storytelling and all that stuff, as opposed to being kind of more clinical even though the content is very scientific, very clinical, very use-case based.

**Image Description:** Peach background with black and yellow lines framing a circle, that is slightly skewed to the right. Pink arrow points to text in circle in the top right and bottom. **Text in White Circle Reads: “**…a lot of my work is saying that in order to counter bias, one of the things you can do is to bring people to the table who are not like you. ””

I'm curious if there are any of the design justice principles that you feel specifically connect to some of that work that you just spoke about that you're doing?

I literally in my talks and my workshops read the first two. So those are the freshest for me. And the piece that I really hammer home the hardest is the second principle that has to do with centering the people who are impacted by the work. Because a lot of my work is saying that in order to counter bias, one of the things you can do is to bring people to the table who are not like you. But there are a lot of people who are not like you so how do you prioritize, and I always say pick the people who are going to be the most impacted by your work, who have the least say in how that work goes. Because they have to live with what you make.

I'm so excited to talk to you because you are in a position where you're talking to potentially a lot of people about these principles and how to take action based on the principles and I'm imagining you field a lot of questions and you get a lot of feedback on what people might be struggling with. Do you have any reflections based on what you've been hearing? Feel free to also offer, of course, your own experience with this, but what have you heard about where people are feeling very challenged with this?

What I hear honestly, this isn't just in workshops, this is just overall, is there's a sense of hopelessness right now, that people really feel overwhelmed by the moment we're in, which makes sense. It is a very overwhelming moment.

I'm actually glad that my book came out when it did. It actually came out in August 2020. And it was a time when nobody was prepared for, there was no contingency list, there was no section in Confluence about how to deal with a pandemic and racial injustice at the same time. Like we all were kind of scrambling and I feel like I was glad that I had something that I could contribute that was hopeful and helpful. It wasn't going to fix everything, by a longshot. But it was going to be at least a contribution to the conversation that could give you a frame for all of it.

But that theme of hopelessness is definitely persistent. I felt it myself. And I think that the biggest challenge right now is to see purpose in what we do, and what we do can't possibly stop Russia from invading Ukraine or stop Ron DeSantis from passing a Don't Say Gay law, like those are things that we cannot press a button and stop.

But we can make choices within our sphere of influence about how we run a meeting, who we invite to the design table, or even just the extra steps we take in acknowledging our own identities when we're designing something. Like even at the most microcosmic level, there's at least one step you can take that's different from the way you did it the last time, that’s just a little more inclusive. That gives me hope, that we do know that there are steps we can take at all gives me hope, but I absolutely see that sense of I just don't know what to do whenever I'm giving these talks or just having conversations with fellow designers.

**Image Description:** Peach background with teal lines framing a circle that is slightly skewed to the left. Teal arrow and purple arrows frame the text in circle. **Text in White Circle Reads:** “That having been said, I always am suspicious of perpetuating a system, like changing the system to benefit me but not really getting rid of the system. So there's a bigger vision that I don't have the words for yet that has more to do with, well, what's a better system altogether? -David Tomas”

Since you’re talking about what gives you hope and you shared that you identify as an artist, I feel like I must ask you if you have any visions for how you would want either the field of design or more specifically the field of design justice to be over the long term, whether that's 10, 20 or 50 years?

I always tell people that I'm out to win hearts and minds and budgets. I love the idea of getting into the budget templates. Like with something like a Red Team Blue Team, which is an exercise where you have some other group come in and get their ethical perspective on your work so you're less likely to put something harmful up because you missed this thing that you couldn’t see. Those exercises take time and budget. Anybody who works in design knows that time and budget matter, and if it isn't in the budget it probably doesn't exist. Where I used to work, if we were going to do a project, the first thing you do is pull up the estimate sheet. The estimate sheet has these prefilled things like kickoff and research and design and QA, like all these things are prefilled. So it's not a question of are you going to do them, it's a question of how much do I need to do, how much is it gonna cost. If a Red Team Blue Team is not in that sheet, I have to argue for it. I have to say, hey, there's this thing called Red Team Blue Team, I think we need to make room for that, and that's gonna be a fight. If they open that thing up and Red Team Blue Team is already there, the question isn't are we gonna do it, the question is who's gonna be on it, when do we staff it, and when do we do it.

I have a passion for getting into the really boring documents, because if you look at systems of oppression, the really boring documents is where a lot of the power lies. There are some little loopholes in the 13th Amendment, which says we banned slavery unless you're incarcerated. That's like three words in there, but they're doing a lot of heavy lifting. So getting into the little minutia of documents can be super powerful, and it can be just as powerful for the forces of good as evil, so that I think is my vision. I would love to see design justice baked into the boring documents.

That having been said, I always am suspicious of perpetuating a system, like changing the system to benefit me but not really getting rid of the system. So there's a bigger vision that I don't have the words for yet that has more to do with, well, what's a better system altogether? I suspect that it’s something that resembles more Indigenous ways of knowing and living. I was having a conversation with the Philly node last night about prison abolition and police abolition, and it was like, these are powerful concepts, but I don't even know if we have the language to describe a world without police, to describe a world without laws, describe a world without prisons, but people lived that way for a very long time. It’s doable, but we just don't have the words for it.

So if you ask me for my vision for design justice, I think the ultimate vision for me lives in that space that there are no words for yet. But in the short term, and when I say short term I mean the next few generations, I want design justice to be baked into the Constitution, to be baked into that little sub law in your state's voting policy or whatever it is.

What did I not ask you that you want to talk about?

I want to talk about Design Justice Network! So I came across the Design Justice Network when I was attending a Data and Society event. I think Sasha Constanza-Chock was speaking there. And I was so blown away by the things she had to say, and I think that's when I first read the principles. It's really the principles that drew me in. 'm like, okay, this articulates something that lives inside the work I've been doing, but I've never seen it, nobody’s written it down yet. I love the story about how carefully those were assembled, and the very thoughtful process that led to their creation. And when I look at them now, they still resonate and they still just hold so much truth.

As a result, I baked that into the part of my talk where I talk about the people who are out there doing the good work. I sort of try to end on a hopeful note by saying I've described some pretty terrible things, but there are people working to make it better, here's one of them. And I put them in the resources section of my book, which I tell everybody is the most important part of my book. I put them in there as a great resource for learning more about this

But like that was two or three years ago. I didn't actually join the network until I found out that there was a Slack. That was the thing that flipped me into saying, okay, I want to be a part of this because I want to talk to other people. I didn't know I could just talk to other people who are in the group. So I became a donor and a member, and then from there became part of the Philly node. And I've been meeting up with them once a month since then, that's been great.

I am so proud. Like there are a lot of people doing the work and, for whatever reason, this particular group is one that resonates with me. Like I'm itinerant, I kind of hop from company to company and conference to conference, sort of Johnny Appleseed, but I don't have a home, a group or association where I'm like this is where I'm going to do the work. I don't have a home and Design Justice Network is the one place that resonates with me as the place I think I want to have as a home base. I'm still gonna work with Algorithmic Justice League, all these other great groups. But, I can't put my finger on why exactly, this is the place where I feel like I can make a home.

Thank you so much for sharing that. Is there anything that you're working on or excited about doing next that you want to share with the network?

So my next thing, honestly, is a screenplay. It's a horror movie based on a true story. I'm just outside of Philly. There’s an urban park in Philly, Washington Square Park. True story, there are in fact the bodies of enslaved people buried, mass graves deep underground, underneath that park. When I first moved to Philly, and I found the site, I just thought, what if they all came back to life one night as zombies but they only eat white people. So the movie is called White Meat. I spent the past couple years researching, like actually finding out the history, fascinating abolitionist history in Philadelphia. I finished the screenplay late last year and so I’m working on building it out.

I bring that up in the context of design justice because one of the things I'm thinking very carefully about is how could I create a more equitable film set. Last year IATSE, the union of many different workers who do work on film sets, came this close to going on strike because of horrible working conditions. So I've been thinking a lot about how to budget for a more equitable set, because if I want people to actually work reasonable hours, it's going to take longer to make the film, I need to budget more for that. Getting back to the budget, right? How to budget for being equitable, and how to have the timeline to be more equitable, because those are often factors that lean into inequities, to say I want it faster, I want it cheaper. So I've been thinking a lot about that. I'll probably be calling upon the network to help me think through that problem and find the opportunities to make the work better. Even if we're not strictly talking about the design of a lab or an app, it’s still making a thing and trying to make it in a way that's beneficial.

That's really cool, and fun that you're working on a project where you get to work on the things that you were just telling me that you think are important for the long term. Thank you again.

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You can learn more about David by visiting www.daviddylanthomas.com.

This interview was conducted and written by Lydia Hooper, who can be reached through www.lydiahooper.com.

Would you be willing to share your experiences with the Design Justice Network? There are no prerequisites (including a traditional design background), and past stories have featured members working in a variety of fields such as social work, community organizing, and handicrafts. We make the process easy for you (no writing involved!) and will only share what/how you consent for us to. We are particularly interested in hearing from members outside of Europe and the North American East Coast. If you have questions or interests, please contact designjusticenetwork@gmail.com.